[Plone-UI] Placeless Adding help needed

Dylan Jay djay at pretaweb.com
Thu Feb 21 03:32:25 UTC 2013


On 21/02/2013, at 12:56 PM, Nathan Van Gheem <vangheem at gmail.com> wrote:

> First off, let me just say, I feel your pain. We've had users have a difficult time knowing where to add. Those same users will most likely have a difficult time managing content with large sites on any system though. Plone's folder structure is a pretty nature way to organize content; however, we do need to think of ways to make it better.
> 
> With that, I'll say a few thoughts here as I'm on both the UI and Framework team:
> 
> - The implementation described makes the UI more complicated and actually requires the user to think more.

which is why I've brought it back here to get your help on a better solution.

> - There are already other ways to solve this problem. One being what Jon just described, another by creation your own custom factory urls
> - The global add concept still seems awkward. How do you set which types have that ability and are there default locations they add to? Can there be multiple add locations?

the point of this email wasn't to rehash the specific idea of globally adding via the "add new" menu. For the record, the idea was to show all types at all times in the add menu but put a divider inbetween. The top half are types that can be added "here" and the bottom half are types that can't be added here but can be added at least in one or more folders elsewhere in the site AND isn't in the top half of the list. You can't set the default locations they go to, but you'd use the "restrictions" settings to restrict the available locations. The PLIP was to also add a location field to the Add form for each type where you could pick which location to add an item, for the cases where there is more than one location it is restricted to. Wasn't that clear in the PLIP?

> - Because of some of these points, it seems like this is more, at least at this point, an integrator level problem--there are ways to solve it and they can be addressed by integrators.

I think if we can fix this problem via reasonably simple and obvious TTW configuration then we have a better Plone.

> - https://github.com/plone/plone.app.contentmenu/issues/2 provides another way to add additional "add new" menu items.

only by integrators and it;s not clear it can be done TTW.

> - This is definitely a plip where it's better to first implement it as an addon so we can see it working somehow first before we accept the implementation.

again, the point of this email wasn't to rehash that PLIP but to get your advice on the best way to solve this problem and then perhaps turn it into a new PLIP or plugin. The reason I opted for a PLIP is the location field seemed like it needed to be in the core or 

> 
> - One last thing, if we ever get a more robust folder contents or "structure" menu where we can globally manage content for plone in a better way, this might be less of a problem

yes it would help make it quicker. But you still have to "go there" to add and know where. Put yourself in the situation where you are media officer for a large organisation, you've just started and you've been told you have to put a media release on the website quickly. Someone created you an account on the website and put you in the media release group (which restricts your ability to just add media releases on /about/news/mediareleases but you don't know this). You login to Plone and puts you on the frontpage. How do you know what to do next?

> 
> So, with all that being said, let's not end the discussion here. Perhaps, we just need to work through a difficult solution.
> 
> 
> -Nathan
> 
> 
> On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 7:35 PM, Jon Stahl <jonstahl at gmail.com> wrote:
> Dylan-
> 
> You know, I've had this use case and very successfully solved it with
> just a simple content rule to "move all items of type X to WHERE THEY
> BELONG."  Users can create those content types anywhere, but then
> poof, they magically go to the place they're supposed to be as soon as
> they hit save.
> 
> :Jon
> 
> 
> On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 5:12 PM, Dylan Jay <djay at pretaweb.com> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > You might remember awhile back I talked about "Placeless Adding". Since then
> > I have submitted it as PLIP and it was rejected on the grounds that the
> > implementation wasn't accepted. Despite this, I believe that this issue is
> > still something that needs to be addressed in Plone and I thought that it
> > would be good to go back to the beginning and with the collective UX wisdom
> > on this list, come up with a more acceptable solution to this problem.
> >
> > Plone's UI for adding content for types that live in a specific location
> > have some complexities which can be a frustration for users. Namely, users
> > need to have special knowledge of where that content should be placed and in
> > creating that content it requires many clicks to navigate to that section of
> > the site and add the content. Wordpress sites prove to be far easier in this
> > regard because the "blog post" type is immediately available on the front
> > page though an "add post" button and represents 99% of the content adding
> > content use cases.
> >
> > In some larger sites the problem becomes far worse. Particularly where you
> > have a front page composed of multiple content sources and types drawn from
> > different parts of the site managed by different people. This was the case
> > for one of our clients who operated one of the largest Plone sites in the
> > world - we were not the implementers of this site but just giving support,
> > however, they have recently decided to switch to another CMS for a variety
> > of reasons. One of those reasons we can identify is that for content editors
> > it had become complex to train and operate place sensitive content buried 3
> > or 4 levels deep. This situation needs lots of navigation clicks to jump
> > between those sections of the site making the experience rather frustrating.
> > Most users only had edit access to these specific sections.
> >
> > As someone pointed out earlier, even in the initial Plone install we have an
> > events folder and a news folder. You need to learn to go there to add those
> > kinds of content. This seems natural to us but the concept of where you add
> > something matters a lot, we have to teach every time to new users. Instead
> > this could be simplified so that News only goes to the news folder and
> > events only go the events folder and we had a way to make it easy to add
> > either of those from anywhere. This should, I believe, make for a simpler
> > experience and a more gentle introduction when coming from a different CMS.
> >
> > Do you agree?
> >
> > If so, whats the best UX to implement this?
> >
> >
> >
> > Adam Terrey
> > Software Engineer
> > PretaWeb
> >
> > Visit our website
> > Email me at adam.terrey at pretaweb.com
> > Call me on +61 2 8203 4021
> >
> > Multi-site solutions for high availability and scalability.
> > Find out about Plone
> >
> >
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