[Framework-Team] Re: Re: Re: Release roadmap for 3.0

[Rob Miller]

Martin Aspeli wrote:
> On Thu, 11 May 2006 00:29:17 +0100, Alec Mitchell <apm13 at columbia.edu> 
> wrote:
> 
> Alec,
> 
> I agree completely with everything you're saying. However, I'd add ...
> 
>> We all agree that there are a lot of great thing we should do, and
>> need to do in the long and short term.  But your job as the framework
>> team is to make a realistic assessment of what we can actually get
>> done in a 6 month time frame given the available resources.  What
>> Alfresco is doing and what customers are looking for in a CMS is at
>> most a peripheral consideration for you guys, and should rarely be a
>> factor in any FT decision (the only cases where it would be are when
>> there are two proposals of equal viability that are competing for the
>> same developer resources).
> 
> ... that the contributors who need encouragement look to some sort of 
> leadership. That normally falls to limi, but I think that by virtue of 
> the importance that the community has bestowed upon the framework team, 
> we can't be ignorant that people expect us to play a certain role. That 
> is, we may decide our role is purely technical, but so long as the rest 
> of the community don't see it that way, this is just wishful thinking.
> 
> I think it very much is the role of the framework team, the release 
> manager, and of all the core, senior or long-standing contributors, to 
> cheerlead, to suggest, to communicate loudly that we really *want* this 
> and that it *must* be done before such-and-such a date. It's a fallacy 
> to believe we can be totally objective, because we also put our blood, 
> sweat and tears into the software, we also depend on it for our jobs, 
> and we also have a vision of what we think Plone should be.

whoa, hold on just a minute here.  NOBODY, until you, right now, has ever said
that this is within the scope of the framework team.  the framework team
exists for one reason, and that is to vet the proposals based on their
technical merit.  i am not aware of any "importance that the community has
bestowed" on this team, and frankly i find this post rather offensive.

if you want to speak for yourself, you can say whatever the hell you want.
but you were given the role of the mouthpiece of the framework team, and while
acting out the responsibilities of that role i would very much appreciate it
if you would stay within the bounds of that role.

> It's naive to think either that contributors will manage to align 
> themselves without a lot of explicit cheerleading, suggestion or 
> creation of a shared sense or purpose and urgency, or that they won't 
> expect the team that are tasked with the final decision on what goes in 
> and out (by which I mean the framework team and the release managager) 
> to actively participate in that process. There's also an unfortunate 
> expectation that limi will do all this - he's not capable of that, 
> neither for the time it takes, nor for his understanding of every 
> technical detail in every area.

nobody is expecting limi to do it.  and nobody is saying that you shouldn't.
but frankly i am EXTREMELY uncomfortable with you suddenly making broad
unilateral statements on what the purpose of this body is, what role we should
be playing, etc.

> Whether it's wearing the framework team hat or not at any given point in 
> time is moot.

no, it's not.

> This list may be semi-private, but when people see posts 
> about good or bad ideas from you, as release manager, or me, the 
> spokesperson[1], or Hanno, Raphael, Helge, Vincenzo, Wichert or Rocky, 
> they'll listen.

and what about whit, or myself, or alan or sidnei, or geoffd, or any other of
the extremely talented folks who have accumulated a significant amount of
merit for one reason or another within this community?  the framework team was
deliberately designed to serve for one release only, PRECISELY so that the
perception that you're trying to encourage now would NOT be allowed to take hold.

> And I, for one, also expect and want to see posts 
> telling me that now would be a good time to get myself in gear, or else 
> it'll be too late, and that this is important and we need to call for 
> more volunteers.

fine, so make those posts, and encourage others to do so.  but as someone who
is intimately involved with the Plone development and release process, i will
be seriously pissed if you start flying off the handle under the auspices of
an "official" voice that nobody other than yourself has seen fit to bless you
with.  the framework team is NOT a marketing team, and your concerns are NOT
universal to the folks who make this happen.

> We have a responsibility to communicate outwardly as well as among 
> ourselves, because we are given the task of making real decisions that 
> will affect Plone profoundly at the turn of each release. At least I 
> think we should have. :)

yes, we do.  and i think that the first and biggest thing that we should be
communicating on is what, exactly, this team is, and what, exactly, it is not.


> Martin
> 
> [1] I've already had to dispel the idea that I somehow have more 
> decision-making power than anyone else on the team once or twice in 
> posts on the list, which is unfortunate.

and i'm going to propose that this problem is exacerbated, in part, by the
authoritative demeanor with which you have a tendency to frame your opinions.

-r