[Board] Re: [Evangelism] The State of Drupal

Matt Hamilton matth at netsight.co.uk
Mon Nov 23 21:24:38 UTC 2009


Scott,
   Can I please ask you to try and record the audio of the panel  
discussion. Even if they are doing an official recording, it would be  
good to get a copy just recorded from laptop/iPhone.

-Matt



On 23 Nov 2009, at 07:39 PM, Scott Paley <scott at abstractedge.com> wrote:

> This is very helpful - thanks!
>
> One can cite that the Royal Bank of Scotland, FBI, CIA and NASA are
> using Plone, and Plone is on the list of approved and secure platforms
> for use at NASA.
>
> I know one of the questions that will come up is examples of sites  
> where the platform is used in the enterprise, govenment, or major  
> educational settings. Basically, what are the "major wins" for Plone  
> in those 3 areas in 2009?
>
> Other topics that will likely come up on the panel:
> Shoot down common misconceptions about open source in general
> Discussion of the "single company model" (Alfresco) vs. the  
> "democratic foundation model" (Plone) vs. hybrid (Drupal) and the  
> differences between community and company driven projects
> How does an enterprise properly evaluate open source platforms? How  
> is that evaluation different than with proprietary systems?
> General compliance issues
> Plone's approach to workflow vs. the other platforms
> Why and when should companies contribute back to the project? What's  
> the value? Examples.
> Standards such as CMIS and RDF, why they're important, and when are  
> they not really important.
>
> On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 2:13 PM, Nate Aune <natea at jazkarta.com> wrote:
> I've been putting together a "10 Things that make Plone a good choice
> for the enterprise" factsheet, and have come up with the following
> talking points.  Many of these echo the excellent ones that Ken
> already posted in his email.
>
> 1) Security
> Since Plone is built on top of Zope and Zope uses a security model
> similar to Unix, the security and permissioning can be very granular.
> Since Zope uses the ZODB, you don't have to worry about SQL injection
> exploits.
>
> One can cite that the Royal Bank of Scotland, FBI, CIA and NASA are
> using Plone, and Plone is on the list of approved and secure platforms
> for use at NASA.
>
> There are the CVE graphs from the IBM report comparing Plone security
> track record to other CMSes and frameworks.
> http://www-935.ibm.com/services/us/iss/xforce/midyearreport/xforce-midyear-report-2008.pdf
>
> The "Hardening Plone" howto on Plone.org is an excellent document
> about how to lock down Plone even more for highly secure environments.
> http://plone.org/documentation/how-to/securing-plone
>
> And the accompanying talk from the recent Plone conference which was a
> use case of a high-security Plone solution, which was audited and
> approved for handling sensitive data from a multi-billion industry.
> http://www.slideshare.net/khink/hardening-plone-a-militarystrength-cms
>
> Zope is very secure
> http://zope2.zope.org/about-zope-2/six-reasons-for-using-zope/zope-is-secure
>
> 2) Scalability
> At the recent Plone conference, we heard case studies about sites that
> have millions of page views per day and hundreds/thousands of users
> logging into the site. I'd like to collect these case studies (perhaps
> on plone.net?), so when potential customers ask for real data, we can
> produce reports that show Plone can scale.
>
> Since it's built on top of Zope, Plone has built-in load distribution
> using ZEO (Zope Enterprise Objects)
> http://zope2.zope.org/about-zope-2/six-reasons-for-using-zope/zope-is-highly-scalable
>
> With Plone 4, we get plone.app.blob which stores large files on the
> file system. Even Sharepoint can't do this OOTB without an expensive
> add-on product.
>
> Plone has built-in caching and with CacheFu, we can send purge
> requests to an upstream caching proxy such as Squid or Varnish.
>
> Load tests can be written easily with Funkload to test before and
> after performance optimizations using collective.funkbot.
> http://pypi.python.org/pypi/collective.funkbot
>
> With RelStorage, you can use Plone with any RDBMS including MySQL,
> PostgreSQL and Oracle and take advantage of these database clustering
> and redundancy capabilities. See Shane Hathaway's recent blog post
> about performance improvements when using RelStorage.
> http://shane.willowrise.com/archives/relstorage-1-4-0b1-and-zodbshootout/
>
> 3) Interoperability
> Since it's written in Python, Plone can talk to just about any backend
> system, from relational databases to authentication services to web
> services, and can be integrated with 3rd party search engines.
>
> The Salesforce.com integration is the best of any open source tool
> available today. David Glick from GroundWire gave a good overview at
> the PloneConf.
> http://www.slideshare.net/davisagli/integrating-plone-with-ecommerce-and-relationship-management-a-case-study-in-plone-getpaid-and-salesforcecom
>
> Because Plone ships with PlonePAS - pluggable authentication service,
> it can authenticate users against Active Directory, LDAP, OpenID, SQL
> or even Gmail.
>
> Plone's built-in search tool can be easily replaced with the open
> source Solr search tool which provides faceted search and enterprise
> level search capabilities. Andi Zeidler gave a lightning talk at the
> PloneConf about how easy it is to integrate.
> http://plone.org/products/collective.solr
>
> Massimo from RedTurtle gave a talk at the European Plone Symposium
> about integrating Google Apps / Google Docs with Plone
> http://www.slideshare.net/massimo.azzolini/googledocs-on-plone
>
> Sally Kleinfeldt from Jazkarta organized a panel discussion about
> Plone and web services at the PloneConf and has also blogged about it.
> http://blog.jazkarta.com/2009/08/07/plone-web-services-things-are-looking-up/
> http://blog.jazkarta.com/2009/10/27/plone-web-services-what-about- 
> cmis/
>
> 4) Data portability
> Moving your Plone database to another provider is usually just a
> matter of copying the Data.fs file and tar up the eggs/products
> directory. Makes it very easy to switch to a different hosting
> provider / vendor if you're not satisfied with your current one.
>
> Besides using the web services APIs mentioned above to get data in and
> out of Plone, one can also leverage ContentMirror, which will
> serialize and replicate all the content in Plone into a relational
> database asynchronously. See Kapil's talk about it at last year's
> Plone Symposium.
> http://docs.google.com/present/view?id=dntgmzf_17547q5j3wq
>
> enpraxis.static site is an add-on for Plone that lets you easily
> create a static HTML snapshot of your entire Plone site.
> http://pypi.python.org/pypi/enpraxis.staticsite
>
> Also, using new tools such as Transmogrifier and Funnelweb (which
> builds on top of Transmogrifier) it's even easier to get data in and
> out of Plone.
> See Lennart's talk from the PloneConf about Transmogriier.
> http://www.slideshare.net/regebro/transmogrifier-migrating-to-plone-with-less-pain-2387600
>
> And the project page for Funnelweb, which gives you a TTW interface
> for importing static sites into Plone.
> http://www.coactivate.org/projects/funnelweb/project-home
>
> 5) Accessibility
> Plone is the most accessible open source CMS available on the market.
> Conforms to Section 508 which is a requirement for all government
> agencies and W3C accessibility guidelines. The functionality
> gracefully degrades on older browsers, or when using a screenreader.
> http://plone.org/products/plone/features/3.0/existing-features/accessibility-compliant/
> and http://plone.org/accessibility-info
>
> An all-too-often forgotten aspect when people construct web sites is
> how accessible these sites are to the blind and sight/motor-impaired.
> Plone was probably the first CMS out there that focused on
> accessibility. With the ruling that web sites can be sued for not
> providing access to the blind, things have changed for government and
> corporations who provide information to the public through their
> websites.
> http://www.infoworld.com/d/security-central/target-sued-over-web-access-blind-917
>
> Aaron VanDerlip from Jazkarta gave a talk about Plone and
> accessibility at the PloneConf 2006
> http://plone.org/events/conferences/seattle-2006/presentations/plone-and-accessibility
>
> 6) Internationalization and multilingual content
> Plone already supports over 50 languages out-of-the-box and with
> Python 2.6 excellent handling of Unicode, we can support multibyte
> languages as well such as Chinese, and even right-to-left (RTL)
> languages such as Arabic and Hebrew.
>
> Using the LinguaPlone add-on you can translate the content of your
> Plone site into any language, and even export the content in standard
> XLIFF format for hand-off to a professional translation agency. after
> they've done the translations, they send back XLIFF files which can
> then be imported into Plone. See Sasha's presentation on this from the
> PloneConf.
> http://www.slideshare.net/valentineweb/manage-multilingual-sites
>
> There was a lightning talk at the Plone conference about an in-place
> translation tool that made it possible to translate the message
> strings in the Plone interface just by clicking on them, and then this
> could be exported to a .po file.
>
> 7) Theming and branding
> Plone already has excellent separation of presentation and content,
> and almost any element in the Plone interface can be styled using only
> CSS. With Deliverance, we have an even easier theming story, and the
> possibility to theme multiple applications using the same static
> HTML/CSS design. Now any design can be made to work with Plone with
> minimal effort - simply add some rules to the Deliverance rules file
> to wire up content generated by Plone into placeholders in the theme.
>
> See my presentation from the Plone symposium (conference slides to be
> posted shortly)
> http://www.slideshare.net/Jazkarta/deliverance-plone-theming-without-the-learning-curve-from-plone-symposium-east-2009
>
> 8) Hosting
> Plone can be hosted on any platform including Linux, BSD, Windows or
> Mac OSX. Basically any platform that can run Python will work.
> Plone can be hosted on a VPS, a dedicated server or virtual machines
> on Amazon EC2 or using Ubuntu's Enterprise Cloud.
> http://www.ubuntu.com/cloud/private
>
> Using GenericSetup, it's very easy to capture site configuration
> settings, and programatically replicate the site on a different
> instance.
>
> Using buildout it's very easy to make repeatable deployments so that
> you can easily replicate a development environment, push it to staging
> and finally production.
> See Tarek's excellent presentation on this subject:
> http://www.slideshare.net/tarek.ziade/delivering-applications-with-zcbuildout-and-a-distributed-model-plone-conference-2008-presentation
>
> A new development by Dylan Jay is collective.hostout which is a series
> of buildout recipes for defining your hosting settings directly in the
> buildout configuration file.
> http://www.slideshare.net/djay/collectivehostout-how-to-host-a-python-app-for-20-in-20min
>
> We've also started working on an Amazon AMI, VMWare and VirtualBox
> images of Plone to make it even easier to evaluate and get Plone
> hosted on a server quickly and using best practices.
>
> 9) Open source
> Similar to Linux, Apache, Firefox and many other popular software
> tools, Plone is open source. Open source is a methodology to
> programming that puts great emphasis on community development. Rather
> than one firm or organization building a particular product, an open
> source project can be built by a variety of individuals or companies.
> We like open source because it helps us stop trying to reinvent the
> wheel and instead choose the best of breed systems for our clients and
> deliver them at an affordable price.
>
> Plone has won 3 years in a row the Best Other CMS Award from Packt  
> Publishing
> http://plone.org/news/plone-wins-packt-2009-cms-award
>
> Martin Aspeli wrote about Plone: a model of a mature open source
> product for his MSc dissertation for Analysis, Design and Management
> of Information Systems course at the London School of Economics.
> http://martinaspeli.net/publications/Plone%20-%20A%20Model%20of%20a%20Mature%20Open%20Source%20Project.pdf
>
> 10) Foundation backed international community
> With over 300 vendors in 50 countries, and Plone being used by
> governments and universities all over the world, Plone is truly an
> international movement. With a non-profit foundation owning the
> trademark and copyrights, Plone is protected and it's governance is in
> good hands. http://plone.org/foundation
>
> The Plone community has an annual conference in a different city every
> year with regional symposia in Europe, N. America and S. America also
> taking place every year. The most recent conference attracted 400
> attendees from 30 countries. http://ploneconf2009.org
>
> In additional to the usual issue tracking systems, Plone also has a
> user feedback service to collect suggestions form the users of the
> software. these suggestions are reviewed by members of the core Plone
> development team and considered for future versions of Plone.
> http://plone.org/news/plone-launches-user-feedback-system
>
> There is also a formal process to get a new feature considered for
> inclusion in the Plone core, a paid release manager and a clear
> roadmap for what future versions of Plone will bring.
> http://plone.org/documentation/manual/plone-developer-reference/overview/release-process
> http://dev.plone.org/plone/roadmap
>
> This is still very much in a draft state but I would love any feedback
> on the points, and I plan to write some blog posts about each point to
> go into further details.
>
> thanks,
> Nate
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 9:51 AM, Scott Paley  
> <scott at abstractedge.com> wrote:
> > Steve - this is fantastic. Thanks!
> >
> > Next Wednesday (12/2)  I'll be sitting on a panel at Gilbane  
> Boston entitled
> > "Open Source CMS Powwow", as the "Plone representative". Others on  
> the panel
> > will include Mitch Pirtle, the founder of Joomla, Jay Batson, a co- 
> founder
> > of Acquia, and Ian Howells, the CMO of Alfresco. In other words,  
> it's a
> > pretty strong panel (always fun to be the "weakest link!")  
> Obviously I know
> > a lot more about Plone than the other 3 platforms, so this kind of
> > information is extremely helpful. It's interesting to see how Drupal
> > stuggles with many of the same challenges as Plone and is not some  
> "magic
> > bullet".
> >
> > http://gilbaneboston.com/conference_program.html#W9
> >
> > If anybody out there wants to "arm" me with additional information  
> about
> > what you perceive to be the strengths of Plone relative to the other
> > platforms, please send an email my way. I'm not as interested in the
> > specific ways in which Plone is better than Joomla as I am about  
> where Plone
> > really shines. I have my own ideas on this, but would love feedback.
> >
> > The stated agenda of the talk is, "Just a few short years ago many
> > organizations wouldn't think of implementing an open source content
> > management system. Today, thousands of major global companies have
> > implemented solutions like Drupal, Joomla!, Plone and Alfresco, to  
> name a
> > few. In this session, Joe Bachana, Founder and CEO of DPCI, has  
> invited
> > major luminaries from these four open source CMS projects to help  
> attendees
> > better differentiate each system from the others. Particular  
> attention will
> > be paid to calling out the strengths of each system. The session  
> will also
> > pay close attention to any feedback or lingering criticism in the  
> market
> > that open source CMS platforms still face."
> >
> > The moderator followed up privately to let the panelists know  
> that, "With
> > regard to the tone of the session, I'd like it to be constructive  
> -- I don't
> > have a particular interest in declaiming which project is better  
> than the
> > other. However, there are clear differentiators on platforms  
> (LAMP, Python,
> > Java/J2EE) as well as functional focus for each that can and  
> should be
> > called out, and we should endeavor to do so. Further, I would like  
> to leave
> > ample time to discuss the criticisms of the open-source platform and
> > communities, since there is still a great deal of it out there."
> >
> > Thanks all,
> >
> > Scott Paley
> > Abstract Edge
> >
> > On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 12:59 PM, Steve McMahon <steve at dcn.org>  
> wrote:
> >>
> >> While at the Non-Profit SW Dev Summit, I had the opportunity to  
> attend a
> >> couple of Drupal panels (new to Drupal, and what's new with  
> Drupal). Drupal
> >> had their A team at the summit (a couple of core devs and several
> >> evangelists) to do the talks. I wanted to pass on a few things on  
> what I
> >> observed. Share as appropriate.
> >>
> >> 1) Drupal is also having the framework vs product debate. From  
> what I
> >> heard, the "framework" side is definitely winning. Many Drupal  
> integrators
> >> are actually demanding that some new, friendlier UI in the Drupal  
> 7 preview
> >> be rolled back because they feel it undermines their flexibility as
> >> integrators. Drupal 7 continues to be a micro-core product that  
> is not
> >> really suitable for use out of the box. The Drupal folks  
> emphasize that no
> >> inexperienced person should think they can integrate Drupal by  
> themselves
> >> (for more than a blog), as they need to gain a lot of experience  
> as to which
> >> modules really work together.
> >>
> >> 2) There is no migration path for add-on modules between 6 and 7.  
> The core
> >> devs emphasize that it will be a rare 6 module that does not need  
> a complete
> >> rewrite to become a 7 module. The integrators in the audience  
> moaned loudly
> >> on receiving this news, and complained that this was awful for  
> them. The
> >> core devs replied that the new APIs would make add on modules  
> more secure
> >> and reliable.
> >>
> >> 3) Drupal is still very complex for end users. I don't think they  
> really
> >> differentiate between users and site managers. Positioning a node  
> in the
> >> content hierarchy still requires intimate knowledge of how Drupal  
> works (or
> >> add on modules that organize portions of the tree). The ideal  
> Drupal install
> >> is probably either small enough that a single site admin is not a
> >> bottleneck, or large enough that several site admins can be well  
> trained.
> >>
> >> 4) Permissions and roles are still pretty much global, and  
> workflow is
> >> rudimentary. No ACLs. The organic groups module remedies some of  
> that, but
> >> there was skepticism about whether or not it could be ported to 7.
> >>
> >> 5) The CCK (content creation kit) is now pretty much integrated  
> into 7,
> >> and is really pretty cool in its ability to allow site admins to  
> add fields
> >> to content types TTW. On the other hand, they don't have a round  
> trip story,
> >> and I heard a couple of conversations, that translated to Plone- 
> speak,
> >> amounted to "we need something like generic setup to handle  
> repeatable
> >> deployments."
> >>
> >> 6) Real-life Drupal is actually very resource intensive. The  
> audience was
> >> told that they could do something like a blog on a cheapo host,  
> but that a
> >> real deployment with multiple content authors would require a  
> dedicated
> >> server or large virtual slice.
> >>
> >> 7) They are still, out-of-the-box, a great blogging platform, and  
> if
> >> you're using Drupal as a "news to the home page site" with a few  
> static
> >> pages, it's easy and fast to configure.
> >>
> >> 8) The party line on Acquia is that what's good for Acquia and  
> Dries is
> >> good for Drupal. I saw not a hint of discomfort with that.
> >>
> >> 9) A somewhat contradictory pair of party lines: "it's easy to  
> find PHP
> >> programmers, and they're inexpensive, therefore PHP is the place  
> to be" and
> >> "Don't even think of using a PHP programmer with less than 3  
> years Drupal
> >> experience to do any customization."
> >>
> >> 10) Taxonomy was "never meant to provide site structure" and is now
> >> deprecated as a way to build nav trees. The "right" way to do it  
> is with the
> >> new relations fields, which allow you to pick nodes as parents/ 
> children.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Evangelism mailing list
> >> Evangelism at lists.plone.org
> >> http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/evangelism
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Scott Paley | ABSTRACT EDGE
> >
> > Office: 212.352.9311
> > Direct: 212.352.1470
> > Fax: 212.352.9498
> >
> > Website: http://www.abstractedge.com
> > Blog: http://www.brandinteractivism.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Evangelism mailing list
> > Evangelism at lists.plone.org
> > http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/evangelism
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Nate Aune - natea at jazkarta.com
> http://www.jazkarta.com
> http://card.ly/natea
> +1 (617) 517-4953
>
>
>
> -- 
> Scott Paley | ABSTRACT EDGE
>
> Office: 212.352.9311
> Direct: 212.352.1470
> Fax: 212.352.9498
>
> Website: http://www.abstractedge.com
> Blog: http://www.brandinteractivism.com
> _______________________________________________
> Board mailing list
> Board at lists.plone.org
> http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/board
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