[Plone-com] We need a new modern theme for plone.com.

Wyn Williams heywyn at gmail.com
Wed Sep 5 06:47:55 UTC 2012

Hash: SHA1

Hello Julian
I think we're in violent agreement!
Indeed :) though my point was the theme does not need to wait for the
content to be finished.

Did you see the trello mail and link yet ?
I think the main organization and decisions will take place over the
next few days, certainly this week I hope (or butts will be prodded
hint hint) and tasks and ideas can go there.

By then we will have a central repo for documents, and TV1, Armina adn
André will have had a chance to chip in.

Documents can be reviewed and the peeps who where working on this
project before can give some of there thoughts.

Still, not doing badly for less then 24 hours since Matt kicked it off :D
+1 separate content and theme threads,since they go to this list
everybody stays in the loop anyway.

On 09/05/2012 09:40 AM, Julian Coyne wrote:
> Hi Wyn,
> I think we're in violent agreement! Content first, design second.
> What I am talking about is responding to the OP in the thread "we
> need a new modern theme for plone.com", and helping to fast track
> that effort and get an excellent outcome.
> I'd better review the balance of the emails so I know what I'm
> talking about in terms organisation so far, and then follow up with
> the right people (Andre et al) to collaborate further.
> I'm interested in any further thoughts on the theme side of the
> equation.
> Also, should we perhaps start another thread do discuss the content
> side of things? I don't have a heap to contribute in that
> department.
> Cheers
> On 5/09/2012 2:07 PM, Wyn Williams wrote: Hey Julian
> I think we are talking at cross purposes here. So far stage two
> would be the tidyup / improving content and the site etc, stage one
> being IA and availability with tight content.
> - From what you have said about the theme it is not a theme but a
> theme framework.
> plone.com needs a theme, you have the base / framework (groovy)
> TV1 can take on the themeing / visual design.
> Sites should always be content driven, we already know what the 
> content is about and the targeted groups - you would of written a 
> brief already for plone.unified (unless it was more ad-hoc) these
> can be supplied to TV1 (they are not handling content just visual)
> There is no holding up of the content this way, I on a very
> regular basis arrange content editors for portals with only a
> (deliberately so) bare bones look.
> I am not suggesting (and bare in mind these are only suggestions,
> it is André's lead on this) we do not use your work only that
> unless you have a very good visual theme on a responsive design
> that is utterly pro looking (you don't) it needs to be passed on to
> a company who can spend time on the visual side / layout.
> Hopefully you could find time to collaborate with TV1 and André but
> it should not be left as it is.
>>>> I think the overall design should be driven by content, 
>>>> requirements and a clear direction rather than vice-versa.
> +1 as I mentioned we know what the content should be, requirements 
> have already been listed and there is a clear direction already
> (read through the mails from Matt especially) and given the time
> constraints these should be developed side by side (visual/content)
> this does not mean on the same site but does mean at the same
> time.
> Quite frankly it does not matter what the site looks like when
> adding content as long as the general sections and layout has been
> decided.
> Wyn
> On 09/05/2012 08:33 AM, Julian Coyne wrote:
>>>> Hi Wyn,
>>>> Thanks for your feedback.
>>>> I won't have read through all the email until I get some
>>>> time tonight, so I only have a patchy understanding of "stage
>>>> two", TV1 etc.
>>>> But at a high level my thoughts are almost exactly the
>>>> opposite of what you've outlined.
>>>> Basically with plonetheme.unified, all of the hard work has
>>>> been done and it can deliver value to the project *now*
>>>> (rather than overspeccing and overcooking everything as we've
>>>> done in the past... only to lose momentum & focus).
>>>> This would serve as the basis for the plonetheme design, and
>>>> we could get TV1 to add "flashy things" later (i.e. a plone
>>>> visual design layer), but using a solid technical foundation,
>>>> and once we have the content defined which IMO should drive
>>>> customisation of the design. It also won't holdup creation of
>>>> content.
>>>> I think the overall design should be driven by content, 
>>>> requirements and a clear direction rather than vice-versa.
>>>> The visual design of plonetheme.unified is good insofar as
>>>> its "not another bootstrap site", but it strives to better
>>>> reflect the identity of Plone. But its by no means meant to
>>>> supplant a formal design process (there is no brief yet!),
>>>> and from the sounds of it TV1 could take the brief,
>>>> requirements and content etc... and build something great for
>>>> plone.com.
>>>> As it stands, plonetheme.unified has all the the
>>>> underpinnings for a modern, responsive grid based layout
>>>> (with sane RTL semantics even) and cleans up quite a bit of
>>>> legacy accumulated cruft thats gathered over the years. So
>>>> the formal design process could focus squarely design, rather
>>>> than UI and library integration into plone.
>>>> I'm not fussed either way - my main focus is to see an
>>>> excellent outcome for plone.com, as it deserves a good online
>>>> presence at last!
>>>> Also I forgot to say that I'm able to contribute some solid
>>>> blocks of time over the next few weekends if anyone is
>>>> interested in progressing this.
>>>> Cheers
>>>> -- Julian Coyne Unified Systems T:  1300 UNIFIED [1300 864
>>>> 343] M: 0438 658 466 [+61 438 658 466] E:
>>>> julian.coyne at unified.com.au W: www.unified.com.au
>>>> On 5/09/2012 1:11 PM, Wyn Williams wrote: Hello Julian Just
>>>> my 2c (etc) but from the sounds of it that would be more
>>>> suitable for stage two and further work (toolbar / Diazio
>>>> etc) I think what was mentioned / the idea is is to have a
>>>> kick ass responsive layout / graphical theme made by TV1 / a
>>>> pro designer were as your theme sounds more technically
>>>> concentrated.
>>>> Maybe you could share and collaborate with André ? since the
>>>> theme is going to be made by a dedicated designer / as a
>>>> client project they will need specifications / requirements /
>>>> use cases / targeted groups etc all of which you would of all
>>>> ready done / prepared when starting on the theme so would be
>>>> good to get to them and save time from the limited time
>>>> resource available.
>>>> Your technical side of things / theme could then be used for
>>>> a more "flashy" in a technical sense theme with there layout
>>>> and graphics in stage two.
>>>> Thoughts ?
>>>> Wyn
>>>> PS I am just making suggestions, looking to André / main
>>>> peeps on this to decide
>>>> On 09/05/2012 07:52 AM, Julian Coyne wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>>> Wow - that's an explosion of pent-up plone energy...
>>>>>>> awesome to see!
>>>>>>> I haven't reviewed everything as yet, but I thought
>>>>>>> I'd better get my thoughts out there (apologies if it
>>>>>>> is in conflict with any subsequent discussion to what
>>>>>>> I've read).
>>>>>>> We have a theme called "plonetheme.unified" that
>>>>>>> cleanly integrates bootstrap with Plone... in a neat
>>>>>>> and unified way [TM] :-)
>>>>>>> What that translates to is 'not another generic
>>>>>>> bootstrap theme', but rather one that respects Plone's
>>>>>>> visual identity, contains compatible compiled CSS for
>>>>>>> legacy plone markup (context/standalone anyone?), and
>>>>>>> overrides and a form layer for z3c.form and several
>>>>>>> other technologies to bring some unification,
>>>>>>> simplification and minimalism to the UI story.
>>>>>>> We have been working on it and refining it since
>>>>>>> bootstrap 1.x, through 2.0 (looking at 2.1 presently).
>>>>>>> I was planning on throwing this into the ring as part
>>>>>>> of the new Plone UI discussions (in fact I wanted to
>>>>>>> get thoughts on it before or as part of the Sea Sprint)
>>>>>>> but didn't know where that would end up as I'm not able
>>>>>>> to attend.
>>>>>>> It may remove a significant roadblock and help reduce
>>>>>>> the stalling that's held up plone.com thus far, and
>>>>>>> allow us to turn something great around for the project
>>>>>>> sooner.
>>>>>>> I've also been involved in the plone.com project since 
>>>>>>> working on the original marketing team and through the
>>>>>>> recent mailing list, and I share Matt's frustrations on
>>>>>>> bringing some focus to the project and making some
>>>>>>> actual progress.
>>>>>>> I think it would work well for the new plone.com
>>>>>>> project. It neatly fit the criteria of a 'new modern
>>>>>>> theme' and is a neat reference implementation of
>>>>>>> bootstrap (which the early emails in this thread that
>>>>>>> I've read seemed happy with). Best of all it is
>>>>>>> available now... which can hopefully shift the 
>>>>>>> discussion from meta-bikeshedding as we're doing now...
>>>>>>> to real proper bikeshedding on the actual plone.com
>>>>>>> site ;-)
>>>>>>> At present - it pointedly *isn't* a diazo theme (as
>>>>>>> we've been waiting for the toolbar integration or a
>>>>>>> clearer direction on clean integration points to avoid
>>>>>>> what we've needed to do on other diazo projects).
>>>>>>> Rather, it sets out to be a clean reference
>>>>>>> implementation of a modern non-diazo plonetheme(.*).
>>>>>>> It is also quite opinionated in terms of legacy cruft
>>>>>>> and happily destructive in terms of ripping out cruft
>>>>>>> from the registries (including KSS for 4.1/4.2), and
>>>>>>> leaving a neat little Plone JS/CSS footprint.
>>>>>>> Lastly, we worked on an API compatible modal overlay 
>>>>>>> replacement to "prepOverlay" from jqt-land, better
>>>>>>> defined HTML5 data- semantics (and a compatible
>>>>>>> javascript API) and IMO considerably tidier and more
>>>>>>> consistent UI/UX. The JS part isn't quite polished but
>>>>>>> the rest is functioning quite neatly and we have it in
>>>>>>> use at the moment.
>>>>>>> So its fairly feature complete, and hopefully will be
>>>>>>> helpful to progressing things.
>>>>>>> Thanks all,
>>>>>>> Julian
>>>>>>> -- Julian Coyne Unified Systems T:  1300 UNIFIED [1300
>>>>>>> 864 343] M: 0438 658 466 [+61 438 658 466] E: 
>>>>>>> julian.coyne at unified.com.au W: www.unified.com.au
>>>>>>> Julian Coyne Unified Systems T:  1300 UNIFIED [1300 864
>>>>>>> 343] M: 0438 658 466 [+61 438 658 466] E: 
>>>>>>> julian.coyne at unified.com.au W: www.unified.com.au
>>>>>>> On 5/09/2012 11:30 AM, Wyn Williams wrote: Hello all +1
>>>>>>> one on that (theme/content), it is how most projects
>>>>>>> normally work although in this case they will be very
>>>>>>> close.
>>>>>>> TV1 seem to be an experienced Plone house and Im sure
>>>>>>> they would want to work with tools like the theme
>>>>>>> editor and Diazio anyway.
>>>>>>> Rock and roll then :)
>>>>>>> Wyn
>>>>>>> On 09/05/2012 02:20 AM, Stone, Derrick J *HS wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> The most important focus of this site is the
>>>>>>>>>> content. It must be no bull-shizzle. The second
>>>>>>>>>> most important focus should be an excellent,
>>>>>>>>>> modern theme, which is responsive. Without these
>>>>>>>>>> two items, Plone.com is not worth doing. It would
>>>>>>>>>> be better for potential customers to simply
>>>>>>>>>> wonder if the community has a professional 
>>>>>>>>>> standard.
>>>>>>>>>> I do not think shell access should be required -
>>>>>>>>>> Plone publishes content out of the box right? :p
>>>>>>>>>> Derrick ________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> From: plone-com-bounces at lists.plone.org 
>>>>>>>>>> [plone-com-bounces at lists.plone.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>>>>>>> Dylan Jay [djay at pretaweb.com] Sent: Tuesday,
>>>>>>>>>> September 04, 2012 6:54 PM To: Alex Clark Cc: 
>>>>>>>>>> plone-com at lists.plone.org Subject: Re:
>>>>>>>>>> [Plone-com] We need a new modern theme for
>>>>>>>>>> plone.com.
>>>>>>>>>> There's a lot of cooks in here already but since
>>>>>>>>>> we just put together a site for our new service
>>>>>>>>>> recently I'll put in 2c then go. - do content
>>>>>>>>>> before the theme. The homepage in particular
>>>>>>>>>> should support your main message. - we went for a
>>>>>>>>>> design inspired by 
>>>>>>>>>> brightbox.com<http://brightbox.com> and 
>>>>>>>>>> squarespace.com<http://squarespace.com>. Long
>>>>>>>>>> front page forming a tour of main key
>>>>>>>>>> differentiators. - but use a professional
>>>>>>>>>> designer, don't use pre rolled themes. - give the
>>>>>>>>>> new theme editor a go.  Great way to get feedback
>>>>>>>>>> as the theme is created and reduce friction
>>>>>>>>>> created by deployment delays. Diazo ftw.
>>>>>>>>>> Dylan Jay Technical solution manager PretaWeb
>>>>>>>>>> 99552830
>>>>>>>>>> On 05/09/2012, at 12:29 AM, Alex Clark 
>>>>>>>>>> <aclark at aclark.net<mailto:aclark at aclark.net>>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>> As far as I can tell, this has not been discussed
>>>>>>>>>> so:
>>>>>>>>>> Who wants to donate a new-modern-theme to the 
>>>>>>>>>> plone.com<http://plone.com> project? To get
>>>>>>>>>> started, we're going to use the existing 
>>>>>>>>>> plone.org<http://plone.org> theme 
>>>>>>>>>> (http://pypi.python.org/pypi/plonetheme.ploneorg)
>>>>>>>>>> but we hope to replace that with something
>>>>>>>>>> better/newer later. If you have any ideas, please
>>>>>>>>>> let us know. Ideally the theme requirements would
>>>>>>>>>> be something like:
>>>>>>>>>> *   Based on Twitter bootstrap (but does not
>>>>>>>>>> appear to be based on bootstrap, please) *
>>>>>>>>>> Responsive (included with bootstrap) *
>>>>>>>>>> Diazo-powered
>>>>>>>>>> But any and all theme donations will be
>>>>>>>>>> considered and appreciated.
>>>>>>>>>> Alex
>>>>>>>>>> -- Alex Clark · http://pythonpackages.com
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ 
>>>>>>>>>> Plone-com mailing list 
>>>>>>>>>> Plone-com at lists.plone.org<mailto:Plone-com at lists.plone.org>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ 
>>>>>>>>>> Plone-com mailing list Plone-com at lists.plone.org 
>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/plone-com
_______________________________________________ Plone-com
>>>>>>>> mailing list Plone-com at lists.plone.org 
>>>>>>>> http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/plone-com
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Plone-com mailing list Plone-com at lists.plone.org 
>>>>>>> http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/plone-com

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