[Plone-com] We need a new modern theme for plone.com.

Wyn Williams heywyn at gmail.com
Wed Sep 5 06:07:52 UTC 2012

Hash: SHA1

Hey Julian

I think we are talking at cross purposes here.
So far stage two would be the tidyup / improving content and the site
etc, stage one being IA and availability with tight content.

- From what you have said about the theme it is not a theme but a theme

plone.com needs a theme, you have the base / framework (groovy) TV1
can take on the themeing / visual design.

Sites should always be content driven, we already know what the
content is about and the targeted groups - you would of written a
brief already for plone.unified (unless it was more ad-hoc) these can
be supplied to TV1 (they are not handling content just visual)

There is no holding up of the content this way, I on a very regular
basis arrange content editors for portals with only a (deliberately
so) bare bones look.

I am not suggesting (and bare in mind these are only suggestions, it
is André's lead on this) we do not use your work only that unless you
have a very good visual theme on a responsive design that is utterly
pro looking (you don't) it needs to be passed on to a company who can
spend time on the visual side / layout.

Hopefully you could find time to collaborate with TV1 and André but it
should not be left as it is.

> I think the overall design should be driven by content,
> requirements and a clear direction rather than vice-versa.

+1 as I mentioned we know what the content should be, requirements
have already been listed and there is a clear direction already (read
through the mails from Matt especially) and given the time constraints
these should be developed side by side (visual/content) this does not
mean on the same site but does mean at the same time.

Quite frankly it does not matter what the site looks like when adding
content as long as the general sections and layout has been decided.


On 09/05/2012 08:33 AM, Julian Coyne wrote:
> Hi Wyn,
> Thanks for your feedback.
> I won't have read through all the email until I get some time
> tonight, so I only have a patchy understanding of "stage two", TV1
> etc.
> But at a high level my thoughts are almost exactly the opposite of
> what you've outlined.
> Basically with plonetheme.unified, all of the hard work has been
> done and it can deliver value to the project *now* (rather than
> overspeccing and overcooking everything as we've done in the
> past... only to lose momentum & focus).
> This would serve as the basis for the plonetheme design, and we
> could get TV1 to add "flashy things" later (i.e. a plone visual
> design layer), but using a solid technical foundation, and once we
> have the content defined which IMO should drive customisation of
> the design. It also won't holdup creation of content.
> I think the overall design should be driven by content,
> requirements and a clear direction rather than vice-versa.
> The visual design of plonetheme.unified is good insofar as its
> "not another bootstrap site", but it strives to better reflect the
> identity of Plone. But its by no means meant to supplant a formal
> design process (there is no brief yet!), and from the sounds of it
> TV1 could take the brief, requirements and content etc... and build
> something great for plone.com.
> As it stands, plonetheme.unified has all the the underpinnings for
> a modern, responsive grid based layout (with sane RTL semantics
> even) and cleans up quite a bit of legacy accumulated cruft thats
> gathered over the years. So the formal design process could focus
> squarely design, rather than UI and library integration into
> plone.
> I'm not fussed either way - my main focus is to see an excellent
> outcome for plone.com, as it deserves a good online presence at
> last!
> Also I forgot to say that I'm able to contribute some solid blocks
> of time over the next few weekends if anyone is interested in
> progressing this.
> Cheers
> -- Julian Coyne Unified Systems T:  1300 UNIFIED [1300 864 343] M:
> 0438 658 466 [+61 438 658 466] E:  julian.coyne at unified.com.au W:
> www.unified.com.au
> On 5/09/2012 1:11 PM, Wyn Williams wrote: Hello Julian Just my 2c
> (etc) but from the sounds of it that would be more suitable for
> stage two and further work (toolbar / Diazio etc) I think what was 
> mentioned / the idea is is to have a kick ass responsive layout / 
> graphical theme made by TV1 / a pro designer were as your theme
> sounds more technically concentrated.
> Maybe you could share and collaborate with André ? since the theme
> is going to be made by a dedicated designer / as a client project
> they will need specifications / requirements /  use cases /
> targeted groups etc all of which you would of all ready done /
> prepared when starting on the theme so would be good to get to them
> and save time from the limited time resource available.
> Your technical side of things / theme could then be used for a
> more "flashy" in a technical sense theme with there layout and
> graphics in stage two.
> Thoughts ?
> Wyn
> PS I am just making suggestions, looking to André / main peeps on
> this to decide
> On 09/05/2012 07:52 AM, Julian Coyne wrote:
>>>> Hi All,
>>>> Wow - that's an explosion of pent-up plone energy... awesome
>>>> to see!
>>>> I haven't reviewed everything as yet, but I thought I'd
>>>> better get my thoughts out there (apologies if it is in
>>>> conflict with any subsequent discussion to what I've read).
>>>> We have a theme called "plonetheme.unified" that cleanly 
>>>> integrates bootstrap with Plone... in a neat and unified way
>>>> [TM] :-)
>>>> What that translates to is 'not another generic bootstrap
>>>> theme', but rather one that respects Plone's visual identity,
>>>> contains compatible compiled CSS for legacy plone markup
>>>> (context/standalone anyone?), and overrides and a form layer
>>>> for z3c.form and several other technologies to bring some
>>>> unification, simplification and minimalism to the UI story.
>>>> We have been working on it and refining it since bootstrap
>>>> 1.x, through 2.0 (looking at 2.1 presently).
>>>> I was planning on throwing this into the ring as part of the
>>>> new Plone UI discussions (in fact I wanted to get thoughts on
>>>> it before or as part of the Sea Sprint) but didn't know where
>>>> that would end up as I'm not able to attend.
>>>> It may remove a significant roadblock and help reduce the
>>>> stalling that's held up plone.com thus far, and allow us to
>>>> turn something great around for the project sooner.
>>>> I've also been involved in the plone.com project since
>>>> working on the original marketing team and through the recent
>>>> mailing list, and I share Matt's frustrations on bringing
>>>> some focus to the project and making some actual progress.
>>>> I think it would work well for the new plone.com project. It
>>>> neatly fit the criteria of a 'new modern theme' and is a neat
>>>> reference implementation of bootstrap (which the early emails
>>>> in this thread that I've read seemed happy with). Best of all
>>>> it is available now... which can hopefully shift the
>>>> discussion from meta-bikeshedding as we're doing now... to
>>>> real proper bikeshedding on the actual plone.com site ;-)
>>>> At present - it pointedly *isn't* a diazo theme (as we've
>>>> been waiting for the toolbar integration or a clearer
>>>> direction on clean integration points to avoid what we've
>>>> needed to do on other diazo projects). Rather, it sets out to
>>>> be a clean reference implementation of a modern non-diazo
>>>> plonetheme(.*).
>>>> It is also quite opinionated in terms of legacy cruft and
>>>> happily destructive in terms of ripping out cruft from the
>>>> registries (including KSS for 4.1/4.2), and leaving a neat
>>>> little Plone JS/CSS footprint.
>>>> Lastly, we worked on an API compatible modal overlay
>>>> replacement to "prepOverlay" from jqt-land, better defined
>>>> HTML5 data- semantics (and a compatible javascript API) and
>>>> IMO considerably tidier and more consistent UI/UX. The JS
>>>> part isn't quite polished but the rest is functioning quite
>>>> neatly and we have it in use at the moment.
>>>> So its fairly feature complete, and hopefully will be helpful
>>>> to progressing things.
>>>> Thanks all,
>>>> Julian
>>>> -- Julian Coyne Unified Systems T:  1300 UNIFIED [1300 864
>>>> 343] M: 0438 658 466 [+61 438 658 466] E:
>>>> julian.coyne at unified.com.au W: www.unified.com.au
>>>> Julian Coyne Unified Systems T:  1300 UNIFIED [1300 864 343]
>>>> M: 0438 658 466 [+61 438 658 466] E:
>>>> julian.coyne at unified.com.au W: www.unified.com.au
>>>> On 5/09/2012 11:30 AM, Wyn Williams wrote: Hello all +1 one
>>>> on that (theme/content), it is how most projects normally
>>>> work although in this case they will be very close.
>>>> TV1 seem to be an experienced Plone house and Im sure they
>>>> would want to work with tools like the theme editor and
>>>> Diazio anyway.
>>>> Rock and roll then :)
>>>> Wyn
>>>> On 09/05/2012 02:20 AM, Stone, Derrick J *HS wrote:
>>>>>>> The most important focus of this site is the content.
>>>>>>> It must be no bull-shizzle. The second most important
>>>>>>> focus should be an excellent, modern theme, which is
>>>>>>> responsive. Without these two items, Plone.com is not
>>>>>>> worth doing. It would be better for potential customers
>>>>>>> to simply wonder if the community has a professional
>>>>>>> standard.
>>>>>>> I do not think shell access should be required - Plone 
>>>>>>> publishes content out of the box right? :p
>>>>>>> Derrick ________________________________________ From: 
>>>>>>> plone-com-bounces at lists.plone.org 
>>>>>>> [plone-com-bounces at lists.plone.org] On Behalf Of Dylan
>>>>>>> Jay [djay at pretaweb.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 04,
>>>>>>> 2012 6:54 PM To: Alex Clark Cc:
>>>>>>> plone-com at lists.plone.org Subject: Re: [Plone-com] We
>>>>>>> need a new modern theme for plone.com.
>>>>>>> There's a lot of cooks in here already but since we
>>>>>>> just put together a site for our new service recently
>>>>>>> I'll put in 2c then go. - do content before the theme.
>>>>>>> The homepage in particular should support your main
>>>>>>> message. - we went for a design inspired by
>>>>>>> brightbox.com<http://brightbox.com> and 
>>>>>>> squarespace.com<http://squarespace.com>. Long front
>>>>>>> page forming a tour of main key differentiators. - but
>>>>>>> use a professional designer, don't use pre rolled
>>>>>>> themes. - give the new theme editor a go.  Great way to
>>>>>>> get feedback as the theme is created and reduce
>>>>>>> friction created by deployment delays. Diazo ftw.
>>>>>>> Dylan Jay Technical solution manager PretaWeb 99552830
>>>>>>> On 05/09/2012, at 12:29 AM, Alex Clark 
>>>>>>> <aclark at aclark.net<mailto:aclark at aclark.net>> wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>> As far as I can tell, this has not been discussed so:
>>>>>>> Who wants to donate a new-modern-theme to the 
>>>>>>> plone.com<http://plone.com> project? To get started,
>>>>>>> we're going to use the existing
>>>>>>> plone.org<http://plone.org> theme 
>>>>>>> (http://pypi.python.org/pypi/plonetheme.ploneorg) but
>>>>>>> we hope to replace that with something better/newer
>>>>>>> later. If you have any ideas, please let us know.
>>>>>>> Ideally the theme requirements would be something
>>>>>>> like:
>>>>>>> *   Based on Twitter bootstrap (but does not appear to
>>>>>>> be based on bootstrap, please) *   Responsive (included
>>>>>>> with bootstrap) * Diazo-powered
>>>>>>> But any and all theme donations will be considered and 
>>>>>>> appreciated.
>>>>>>> Alex
>>>>>>> -- Alex Clark · http://pythonpackages.com
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Plone-com mailing list 
>>>>>>> Plone-com at lists.plone.org<mailto:Plone-com at lists.plone.org>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Plone-com mailing list Plone-com at lists.plone.org 
>>>>>>> http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/plone-com
>>>>> _______________________________________________ Plone-com
>>>>> mailing list Plone-com at lists.plone.org 
>>>>> http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/plone-com
>>>> _______________________________________________ Plone-com
>>>> mailing list Plone-com at lists.plone.org 
>>>> http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/plone-com

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