<html><head></head><body bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><div>I'll be very glad to test this out! My various dev buildouts lack PIL :)</div><div><br></div><div>+1 for forging ahead!</div><div><br></div><div> Kim<br><br>On Mar 11, 2012, at 4:20 AM, David Glick <<a href="mailto:davidglick@groundwire.org">davidglick@groundwire.org</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><div></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
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On 3/11/12 12:46 AM, Martin Aspeli wrote:
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<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On 11 March 2012 06:58, Mikko Ohtamaa <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:mikko%2Bplone@redinnovation.com">mikko+plone@redinnovation.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
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<div class="im"> <br>
Last night while talking to Clayton and Liz about
the whole ZopeSkel/Paster/Templer/Crushinator
situation it became clear that the story for new
developers is a complete mess. <br>
<br>
</div>
<div class="im"> This is bad, and having a new
shinny thing that "eases" Plone development just made
the situation even worse -- as long as someone must
use it and then <zopeskel create> &
<paster addcontent>. <br>
<br>
Time to kill most of the available options, focus
on **just one** and have a compelling story to tell to
newcomers. <br>
<br>
</div>
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</blockquote>
<div><br>
+1 for cleaning up the old stuff before inventing new
stuff<br>
<br>
A good step would be making buildout just work, as it is
indented<br>
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<div><br>
</div>
<div>
Yay for stop energy. :-/</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I want a solution that works now to a very specific
problem: people expect to be able to use an OS-managed/system
Python to develop with Plone. And when they try, their
environment breaks in all kinds of hard-to-debug ways.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I don't want a framework or something with a million things
that can go wrong. plone-devstart is a dirt simple script
using nothing but the Python standard library. And, crucially,
it scans the environment looking for known/common problems.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I'm more concerned about the overlap with the installers,
though that's a slightly different discussion again.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The point is that *once you have a stable/clean
environment*, you can have all kinds of good tools. But if you
can't get those tools to install or run, you're screwed. Even
if buildout should "just work" you still need to install it.
And you still need to worry about whether you have the right
Python version. And you may still be missing PIL C library
dependencies, or have a poisonous libxml2 killing lxml dead in
your global library, or be missing Python headers or a C
compiler. None of those are within Buildout's scope, and they
are causing real problems for real people *today*.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Thanks for working on this, Martin. It sounds like a great tool and
I'm looking forward to giving it a try.<br>
<br>
We do also really need to fix the ZopeSkel situation. Right now a
ton of tutorials give instructions for it that just don't work with
the new version, which is a huge huge barrier for newbies. But
having ZopeSkel implementation and docs in sync is a different
problem than getting a working development set up, so I don't
understand the stop energy from people. plone-devstart and ZopeSkel
are complementary tools.<br>
<br>
David<br>
<p> </p>
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<p><b><span style="FONT-FAMILY: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; COLOR: #54637a; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">David Glick</span></b><br><span style="FONT-FAMILY: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; COLOR: #54637a; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; COLOR: #54637a; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">Web Developer</span><br></span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; COLOR: #54637a; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><a href="mailto:davidglick@groundwire.org">davidglick@groundwire.org</a><span><br><span style="FONT-FAMILY: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; COLOR: #54637a; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; COLOR: #54637a; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">206.286.1235x32
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<p><span style="FONT-FAMILY: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; COLOR: #54637a; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #54637a; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><a title="" href="http://www.npoengagementparty.com">The NPO Engagement Party
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